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Some notes from the Liveable Crouch End Stakeholder meeting 19/9/19

Liveable Crouch End Stakeholder Forum
19 September 2019, 2.30-4pm
Hornsey Vale Community Centre
Confirmed attendees:
1. Sam Neal – Haringey Council
2. Jereme McKaskill and Faith Coles – Project Centre
3. Mark Afford, David Winskill, and Rob Jackson - Crouch End Neighbourhood Forum
4. Adrian Essex and Clive Carter - OpinioN8
5. Lewis Freeman – Dunn’s Bakery and Chairman of Crouch End Traders Association
6. Norman Beddington - Hornsey and Wood Green Labour Party - Climate Change and
Environment Group
7. Selena Calder and Michael Poteliakhoff – Haringey Cycling Campaign
8. Liz Sich – Hornsey Town Hall Creative Trust
9. Cengiz Rifat - Local property owner / developer
10. Sue Hessel and Chloe Milburn – Crouch End Carers
11. Nina and Karee – Rokesly Junior School
12. Cllr Luke Cawley-Harrison – Haringey Council
13. Jo Riley – Hornsey Vale Community Centre
14. Diane Firth – Far East Consortium
1. Chris Barker - Hornsey and Wood Green Labour Party - Climate Change and Environment
2. Chris Allen – MET Police
1. Welcome and introductions
a. Round table introductions by all attendees.
2. Scheme and website update:
a. Co-design workshops happened back in April and since then PCL and Haringey
Council have been working on proposals for the area and adjusting the plans
presented at the workshops following attendees comments and suggestions.
b. To test the feasibility of some of the ideas proposed the Council are going to be
running a trial of one of the proposed closure areas to see what the effects may be.
The trial will be focused around Middle Lane and surrounding roads.
c. Haringey website has been updated and includes a page on the trials and supporting
information shared at the workshops such as traffic counts and questionnaire
results: www.haringey.gov.uk/liveablecrouchend
3. Car Free Day
• Happening on Sunday 22 September on the southern end of Middle Lane (near
Monkeynuts). There will be events and various activities happening throughout the
day, and it will also be used as a bit of an introduction for the trials.
4. Liveable crouch End Trials discussion
• Trials will be running from 7 – 20 October. Documents available at the meeting (also
available online) include a map of the trial area and closure points, a map showing
diversion routes for residents and deliveries, and a map showing the area that
should benefit from no through-traffic during the trial period.
• Signs for non-24 hour diversions will be in place.
• There will be traffic counts before and after the trials are in place.
• Stakeholder – if you close Middle Lane you’re forcing more vehicles onto Park Road
and other A-roads and increasing the volume of traffic and congestion on these
roads at rush hours.
o LBH – we are aware of these concerns which is partly why we want to trial
the road closure, to get a better idea of what will happen with road closures
and give us more information to base the scheme plans on.
• Stakeholder – the best way to decrease car use is to have an excellent bus service in
the area.
o Stakeholder – Agreed, and LBH went to TfL previously to ask for better bus
services and this wasn’t addressed.
• Stakeholder – I want to see much more walking and cycling in the area, especially
around schools. If one of the aims of the project is to improve air quality the project
needs to win hearts and minds and the positives of the project need to be promoted
to people to get them behind the scheme.
• PCL – we want to hear from people throughout and after the trial – what did / didn’t
work, where could things be better etc
5. Q&A
• Implications of road closures on surrounding areas? Currently a lot of drivers get
frustrated with the closure on Palace Rd.
o LBH – As a team we can look at whether additional signage in that area
could help. We would also value hearing back from people about what they
observe during the trial.
• Are there any thoughts on how traffic impact on local schools can be reduced?
o PCL – The trial should have a positive impact on many of the local schools by
reducing traffic in the area. If successful this will be a good implication for
the effects of the proposals on other schools.
• Has anything been considered regarding one-way systems around Elder Avenue and
neighbouring streets?
o PCL – Yes we have been looking at the options for one-ways in the area and
looking at implications. We will monitor what happens in during the trial.
Residents of Elder Avenue aren’t keen on the idea of one-way due to cars
speeding. PCL are aware of this concern.
• Why has Middle Lane been chosen for closure?
o PCL – it has much higher vehicle numbers and speeds than it should have for
a residential street. Park Road and Tottenham Lane are designated A-roads
and whereas Middle Lane is not. People at the workshops thought Middle
Lane had more of a residential feel to it and would be better suited to a
closure than roads like Ferme Park Rd.
• Why not incentivise drivers to get cleaner vehicles and help air quality by providing
free parking for electric vehicles?
o LBH – we are looking at options like that as part of this process and how we
can encourage cleaner vehicles.
• Why is the trial only for two weeks? Other areas have shown that after four weeks
traffic has sorted itself out, but not sure two weeks is going to show useful data.
o LBH – the funding we have from TfL only allows us to run a trial for two
weeks. We agree that longer would be better but this trial will still provide
valuable insight.
• Have you set out any criteria as to whether the trial is a success or failure?
o PCL – When we get the data back we will be able to see whether it’s been a
success or not, looking at quantitative and qualitative data gathered before
and during the trial.
• Could you gather perceptions from the businesses to find out what their reactions
are and any impact to them? Can they have tables and chairs licensing for the two
o PCL – Recently we have spoken to businesses affected and told them the trial is
coming and asked for their thoughts. Many have expressed an interest in using
the extra space during the trials so we’re looking at that with the Council to see
what we can arrange for them.
• Can you make it explicit on the website what the measures for testing the success of
the trial are? Are you getting people’s opinions?
o PCL – there will be an area online for people to feed back, and we will be keen to
hear people’s opinions on the trial.
• Why didn’t you budget more for this trial so you could measure more of a
difference, e.g. changes in air quality as a result?
o LBH – When we bid for the money the potential interventions were as yet
unknown and therefore we didn’t know exactly what trials would need to
be done or would be of benefit to progressing the scheme, so a specific
budget couldn’t be set aside and an estimate had to be made. Air quality is
continually monitored, but it any short trial cannot capture the impact.
• Disabled people seem to be overlooked. What will happen if roads are going to be
o PCL – people can still drive in the area and access all locations within the
area, they will just need to take different routes. Everything along the roads
will still be accessible, the junctions will just be closed where closure points
are shown on the map.
• What if there’s an accident on one of the other roads?
o The emergency services are aware of the trial and the diversions.
• Surely this increases pollution and creates bottlenecks?
o PCL – There will be some negative implications which we will be using this
trial to monitor and get more information on. There will also be a lot of
benefits to residents and schools in the area.
• Have businesses been spoken to and what were their opinions?
o PCL – We have spoken to businesses in the town centre about the scheme,
and have now spoken to businesses on Middle Lane and Tottenham Lane
about the trial, we will be speaking to more businesses before the trial
starts. Many businesses were positive about the trial and wanted to take
advantage of the quieter roads. Some were against the trial as they thought
it would disrupt deliveries. We will be speaking to them during and after the
trial to get their thoughts.
• Is it possible to publish bus performance stats during the trial?
o LBH – if TfL are happy for us to share the data we will do.
• Would it be possible to reallocate Haringey’s mobile ANPR units for the trial? E.g. for
the bus gate?
o LBH – we did look at that and can raise it again but the main issue is their
availability as they’re trying to cover the whole borough and the fact that
this doesn’t stop the traffic going through only fines then, therefore doesn’t
give us the data we need.
• What counts as a good result once it’s all done?
o LBH – there is a perception that if we start closing roads, all the traffic will
be funnelled onto the main A-roads. If this can show that traffic disperses
and lessens in the area that will be considered a positive, but it will be
interesting to see if a shift occurs in two weeks. We also want to look at the
effect it has on Ferme Park Road and the wider area and whether traffic is
increased or decreased.
• Vehicle displacement – is this just going to shift traffic into poorer areas with worse
health problems than Crouch End? How will we know?
o LBH – we’re working with TfL on this and they are looking at the wider
effects and wider monitoring.
• Why can’t funding be used to improve buses in the area? Especially to hospitals?
o Stakeholders – because it’s Capital not revenue funding, also there’s not
enough money. Bus services cost more to run and infrastructure in Crouch
End would have to be re-built / improved.
• What is happening around Birkbeck Road?
o PCL – we will be keen to speak to people here about the effects of the trial.
• Can we have clarity on what data is being collected?
o LBH – we will do traffic counts before and during the trial.. We will also have
an online questionnaire to get the more qualitative data – how people found
the trial, what it was like travelling through the area via different modes,
what could be changed etc.
• What happens after the trial?
o PCL – Collect the data, analyse, decide what it means, then we will hold
another stakeholder meeting to present the results and talk about how
these feed into the plans for consultation.
• If Crouch End loses a lot of its parking this could have a very significant impact on
Crouch End businesses. Have you thought about doing a retail impact assessment?
o PCL – we know that elsewhere where areas are improved for pedestrians that
they are more economically successful. However we agree that a retail
impact assessment would be important and we will look into it. LBH – The
main constraints to this would be budget, in order to do it properly and
make it worthwhile.
• One of the things being looked at is a change to the CPZ but during a recent survey
in crouch End most respondents said they didn’t want it reviewed.
o LBH – CPZ’s only get reviewed if someone requests it and one in Crouch End
was requested to be reviewed. The project team are working closely with
the parking team and will ensure any review will be considered in the light
of the wider LCE project
• There’s a rumour the CPZ review was bumped for disabled parking? Can you confirm
o LBH – We will look into this and get back to you.
• Will there be any further trials in the area?
o PCL – there aren’t any planned and it’s unlikely there will be more due to
• Will dockless bikes be introduced in the area during the trial?
o PCL – we haven’t spoken to any companies about this but will look at the
6. Next steps
a. Following the trial there will be the next TfL Gateway to release the next stage of
funding. We are aiming for public consultation in early 2020.
7. Drop-in dates for the trial:
a. Saturday 28 September, 11.30am – 3pm, Hornsey Vale Community Centre
b. Wednesday 2nd October, from 3.30pm to 7pm, Hornsey Library Gallery

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